Another Rose Noble

Just found out today that I won a lot in a mail bid auction - a 1583-1591 Netherlands, Gorinchem Rose Noble.

Since I don't have the coin yet - these are the seller's pics. But what a beauty she is I'll re-do the pics one the coin arrives.

 

Why gee thanks Andy - such a generous offer


Watch your mail - the coin should arrive the second Tuesday of next week

 

Now that would be a novel approach. But based on experience - I already know that offspring can be quite expensive

 

Aidan -

The coin is what I said, a rose noble struck in the Netherlands at the Gorinchem mint. It is not an Edward IV rose noble.

One of the differences is in the reverse legend. The English noble starts out IHC - this one starts out IHD. But the easiest way to tell them apart is at 12 o'clock of the reverse. The English noble has a cross there - the Gorinchem noble has a crown.

 

It's not an if Aidan - it is a definite. In Delmonte the coin is listed as # 825bis - in Freidberg it is # 80.

Here is another example struck in the Netherlands, this one at Utrecht -







And you are correct - the British did have a mint at Calais. But even the English nobles struck at Calais were different than the ones struck in England.

As to why the Netherlands copied the design of the British coin - who knows. Why did the British copy the designs of the French coins 3 centuries earlier ? Bottom line is - the European countries all copied designs from each other.

But during the late 1500's - the Netherlands was in the beginning stages of its independence from Spain. And England was the enemy of Spain. So the Netherlands, being a weak country, wanted to align themselves with a strong country. They chose England. For England was the largest customer the Netherlands had for the textile trade. Perhaps that was the reason.

And they also made sure that the coins could be told apart - there are always small differences. This is even true for the different rose nobles struck at all of the various Netherlands mints - and just about all of them struck one. Some changed the legends - some did not. Some made very minor changes in the design - like the subject coin of this post. Other than the differences I have noted - the two coins cannot be told apart.

 

Freidberg is considered to be one of the primary source references - Gold Coins of the World - From Ancient Times to the Present 7th Edition by By Arthur & Ira Friedberg.

Delmonte - is considered to be THE reference source for the coinage of the Low Countries. Le Benelux D'Or by A. Delmonte.

The silver coins you mention I cannot speak about with confidence - they may well be the same. But the British gold nobles struck at Calais have a different mint mark and they have a flag on the stern of the ship. Those struck in England do not.

 

You are correct, the rose noble was also known as a ryal. But I don't know that either term is more accepted than the other. And I think you got your kings mixed up just a bit.

Here is some very basic history & information regarding the English gold noble. Sorry for the lengthy post - but we may as well get it all out now as later.

edited to add - this info is regarding the English noble - not the coin(s) pictured in this post.



The Noble was the first English gold coin produced in quantity, having been preceded by the Twenty pence coin and the Florin earlier in the reigns of King Henry III and King Edward III, which saw little circulation.
The Noble and its derivatives, the Half Noble and Quarter Noble, on the other hand were produced in quantity and were very popular.
The value of the coin was six shillings and eight pence (6/8) i.e. eighty pence or one-third of a pound. Throughout the history of this denomination there are many varieties of inscriptions, mintmarks, and to some extent, design.

The coin was introduced during the second coinage (1344-1346) of King Edward III, when the coin weighed 138.5 grains (9.0 grams); during the kings' third coinage (1346-1351) the weight of the coin was reduced to 128.5 grains (8.3 grams), while in his fourth coinage (1351-1377) it became even lighter, at 120 grains (7.8 grams).

Edward III Second Coinage obverse legend: EDWAR DGRA REX ANGL Z FRANC DNS HYB (Edward by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of Ireland). Design: The king, holding a sword and shield in a ship. Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLORUM IBAT (But Jesus passing through their midst went His way). Design: 'L' in centre of a cross.

The Third Coinage design is the same as the Second Coinage, except for having an 'E' in the centre of the cross on the reverse.

During the Fourth Coinage, politics required changes in the inscriptions. Initially Edward retained his claim on the throne of France, but following a treaty in 1360 this claim was dropped, and coins instead claim Aquitaine. In 1369 the treaty broke down and the claim on the throne of France was reinstated.

Pre-Treaty legend (obverse): EDWARD DEI GRA REX ANGL Z FRANC D HYB(E) (Edward by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of the Irish). Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLORUM IBAT (But Jesus passing through their midst went His way).
Transitional period (1361) and Treaty period (1361-1369) (obverse): EDWARD DEI GRA REX ANGL DNS HYB Z ACQ (Edward by the grace of God King of England Lord of Ireland and Aquitaine). Reverse legend: IHC AUTE TRANSIES P MEDIUM ILLORR IBAT (many varieties exist and often whole words are missing)(But Jesus passing through their midst went His way).

Post-Treaty period (1369-1377) (obverse): EDWARD DEI G REX ANG Z FRA DNS HYB Z ACT (Edward by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of Ireland and Aquitaine). Reverse legend: IHC AUTE TRANSIES P MEDIUM ILLORR IBAT (many varieties exist and often whole words are missing)(But Jesus passing through their midst went His way). During the reign of King Richard II (1377-1399) Nobles were struck at both the London and Calais mints, but today they are difficult to obtain. Coins minted at Calais can be distinguished because the ship has a flag at the stern.

Obverse legend: RICARD DI G REX ANGL Z FR DNS HIBS Z AQT (with minor variations in abbreviations) (Richard by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of Ireland and Aquitaine). Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLORR IBAT (many varieties exist)(But Jesus passing through their midst went His way).

There exists a variant obverse: RICARD DI GR REX ANGL DNS HIBS Z AQT - note the omission of the French title. Nobles produced during the reign of King Henry IV (1399-1413) are divided into the heavy coinage of 120 grains (7.8 grams) produced until 1412, and the light coinage of 108 grains (7.0 grams) produced in 1412-1413. Henrician Nobles are a little difficult to distinguish because Kings Henry V and Henry VI also produced Nobles and at first glance they look very similar, but variations particularly in mintmarks can tell them apart -- interested readers are advised to consult a good coin catalogue.

During the Heavy Coinage period, Nobles were minted in both London and Calais, the Calais coins again being distinguished by the flag on the stern of the ship. During the Light Coinage period, Nobles were only minted in London.

Obverse legend: HENRIC DI GRA REX ANGL Z FR DNS HIBS Z AQT (with many variations in abbreviations) (Henry by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of Ireland and Aquitaine). Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLORR IBAT (But Jesus passing through their midst went His way). Henry V's (1413-1422) coins are very similar to those of his father, but there are about 7 different varieties of design and style of lettering. The omission of the "and Aquitaine" title is another difference between the coins of Henry IV and V.

Obverse legend: HENRIC DI GRA REX ANGL Z FRANC DNS HYB (often abbreviated) (Henry by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of the Irish). Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRAN(S)IENS PER MEDIUM ILLORR IBAT (But Jesus passing through their midst went His way). Nobles were struck throughout Henry VI's first reign (1422-1461), but a shortage of gold resulted in fewer coins being struck. There were a number of issues, from both the London and Calais mints, but towards the end of the period the coins were only struck in London.

Obverse legend: HENRIC DI GRA REX ANGL Z FRANC DNS HYB (often abbreviated) (Henry by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of the Irish). Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLORR IBAT (But Jesus passing through their midst went His way). The gold Noble which had hardly changed in style, value, or quality since the reign of Edward III was minted for the last time during the first reign of King Edward IV (1461-1470). The price of gold rose from the 1430s onward, and this meant that gold coins were worth more in Europe than in England, which resulted in a gold shortage in England as coins were exported for profit. Only a small quantity of Nobles were minted during Edward IV's Heavy Coinage period (1461-1464), at London. Finally, in 1464 in an attempt to stop the coins drifting over to the continent, the value of all gold Nobles was raised from six shillings and eight pence, (6/8) = 80 pence to eight shillings and four pence, (8/4) = 100 pence and a new coin, the "Rose Noble, or Ryal" worth ten shillings and weighing 120 grains (7.8 grams) was introduced -- however it was unpopular and was discontinued after 1470.

In contrast, a new coin worth six shillings and eight pence (the same as the original Noble), the Angel was introduced in 1464 and soon became a popular and important coin.

Obverse legend: EDWARD DI GRA REX ANGL Z FRANC DNS HYB (Edward by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of Ireland). Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLOR IBAT (But Jesus passing through their midst went His way).