Thread: Another Rose Noble

You are correct, the rose noble was also known as a ryal. But I don't know that either term is more accepted than the other. And I think you got your kings mixed up just a bit.

Here is some very basic history & information regarding the English gold noble. Sorry for the lengthy post - but we may as well get it all out now as later.

edited to add - this info is regarding the English noble - not the coin(s) pictured in this post.



The Noble was the first English gold coin produced in quantity, having been preceded by the Twenty pence coin and the Florin earlier in the reigns of King Henry III and King Edward III, which saw little circulation.
The Noble and its derivatives, the Half Noble and Quarter Noble, on the other hand were produced in quantity and were very popular.
The value of the coin was six shillings and eight pence (6/8) i.e. eighty pence or one-third of a pound. Throughout the history of this denomination there are many varieties of inscriptions, mintmarks, and to some extent, design.

The coin was introduced during the second coinage (1344-1346) of King Edward III, when the coin weighed 138.5 grains (9.0 grams); during the kings' third coinage (1346-1351) the weight of the coin was reduced to 128.5 grains (8.3 grams), while in his fourth coinage (1351-1377) it became even lighter, at 120 grains (7.8 grams).

Edward III Second Coinage obverse legend: EDWAR DGRA REX ANGL Z FRANC DNS HYB (Edward by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of Ireland). Design: The king, holding a sword and shield in a ship. Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLORUM IBAT (But Jesus passing through their midst went His way). Design: 'L' in centre of a cross.

The Third Coinage design is the same as the Second Coinage, except for having an 'E' in the centre of the cross on the reverse.

During the Fourth Coinage, politics required changes in the inscriptions. Initially Edward retained his claim on the throne of France, but following a treaty in 1360 this claim was dropped, and coins instead claim Aquitaine. In 1369 the treaty broke down and the claim on the throne of France was reinstated.

Pre-Treaty legend (obverse): EDWARD DEI GRA REX ANGL Z FRANC D HYB(E) (Edward by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of the Irish). Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLORUM IBAT (But Jesus passing through their midst went His way).
Transitional period (1361) and Treaty period (1361-1369) (obverse): EDWARD DEI GRA REX ANGL DNS HYB Z ACQ (Edward by the grace of God King of England Lord of Ireland and Aquitaine). Reverse legend: IHC AUTE TRANSIES P MEDIUM ILLORR IBAT (many varieties exist and often whole words are missing)(But Jesus passing through their midst went His way).

Post-Treaty period (1369-1377) (obverse): EDWARD DEI G REX ANG Z FRA DNS HYB Z ACT (Edward by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of Ireland and Aquitaine). Reverse legend: IHC AUTE TRANSIES P MEDIUM ILLORR IBAT (many varieties exist and often whole words are missing)(But Jesus passing through their midst went His way). During the reign of King Richard II (1377-1399) Nobles were struck at both the London and Calais mints, but today they are difficult to obtain. Coins minted at Calais can be distinguished because the ship has a flag at the stern.

Obverse legend: RICARD DI G REX ANGL Z FR DNS HIBS Z AQT (with minor variations in abbreviations) (Richard by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of Ireland and Aquitaine). Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLORR IBAT (many varieties exist)(But Jesus passing through their midst went His way).

There exists a variant obverse: RICARD DI GR REX ANGL DNS HIBS Z AQT - note the omission of the French title. Nobles produced during the reign of King Henry IV (1399-1413) are divided into the heavy coinage of 120 grains (7.8 grams) produced until 1412, and the light coinage of 108 grains (7.0 grams) produced in 1412-1413. Henrician Nobles are a little difficult to distinguish because Kings Henry V and Henry VI also produced Nobles and at first glance they look very similar, but variations particularly in mintmarks can tell them apart -- interested readers are advised to consult a good coin catalogue.

During the Heavy Coinage period, Nobles were minted in both London and Calais, the Calais coins again being distinguished by the flag on the stern of the ship. During the Light Coinage period, Nobles were only minted in London.

Obverse legend: HENRIC DI GRA REX ANGL Z FR DNS HIBS Z AQT (with many variations in abbreviations) (Henry by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of Ireland and Aquitaine). Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLORR IBAT (But Jesus passing through their midst went His way). Henry V's (1413-1422) coins are very similar to those of his father, but there are about 7 different varieties of design and style of lettering. The omission of the "and Aquitaine" title is another difference between the coins of Henry IV and V.

Obverse legend: HENRIC DI GRA REX ANGL Z FRANC DNS HYB (often abbreviated) (Henry by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of the Irish). Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRAN(S)IENS PER MEDIUM ILLORR IBAT (But Jesus passing through their midst went His way). Nobles were struck throughout Henry VI's first reign (1422-1461), but a shortage of gold resulted in fewer coins being struck. There were a number of issues, from both the London and Calais mints, but towards the end of the period the coins were only struck in London.

Obverse legend: HENRIC DI GRA REX ANGL Z FRANC DNS HYB (often abbreviated) (Henry by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of the Irish). Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLORR IBAT (But Jesus passing through their midst went His way). The gold Noble which had hardly changed in style, value, or quality since the reign of Edward III was minted for the last time during the first reign of King Edward IV (1461-1470). The price of gold rose from the 1430s onward, and this meant that gold coins were worth more in Europe than in England, which resulted in a gold shortage in England as coins were exported for profit. Only a small quantity of Nobles were minted during Edward IV's Heavy Coinage period (1461-1464), at London. Finally, in 1464 in an attempt to stop the coins drifting over to the continent, the value of all gold Nobles was raised from six shillings and eight pence, (6/8) = 80 pence to eight shillings and four pence, (8/4) = 100 pence and a new coin, the "Rose Noble, or Ryal" worth ten shillings and weighing 120 grains (7.8 grams) was introduced -- however it was unpopular and was discontinued after 1470.

In contrast, a new coin worth six shillings and eight pence (the same as the original Noble), the Angel was introduced in 1464 and soon became a popular and important coin.

Obverse legend: EDWARD DI GRA REX ANGL Z FRANC DNS HYB (Edward by the grace of God King of England and France Lord of Ireland). Reverse legend: IHC AUTEM TRANSIENS PER MEDIUM ILLOR IBAT (But Jesus passing through their midst went His way).

Wow! That was great GD! Thanks so much

Um. I'm still waiting by the mailbox. Getting tired of standing. Looks like rain. But still waiting.

Here's an English Noble for comparison. Henry VI...

Originally Posted by Aidan Work

The Rose Noble is also more properly known as a Ryal.It was first struck during the reign of King Edward III & discontinued during the 1st reign of King Henry VI (1422-61).

The Noble was first struck in Edward III's reign to replace the Florin (Double Leopard or whatever you want to call it).

The Noble was discontinued in the reign of Edward IV, and was replaced by a Ryal (or Rose Noble). If i remember rightly the Ryal was valued at 10/- rather than 6/8d that the noble always had been.

The angel was introduced shortly afterwards as a new 6/8d coin to help fill the void left by the absence of the Noble.

The Ryal came and went over the next century or so, Edward VI struck them, Henry VII had then, Queen Mary I and the demomination ceased in James I's reign if i remember rightly. A somewhat patchy, sporadic and totally unsuccessful existance for that 10/- coin.

The Angel was later revalued to 10/- anyhow and circulated alongside the gold half sovereign of the same value.

Sylvester I'm surprised at you. Henry VI did issue a ryal, as did Mary, Elizabeth I and James I. But they were alike in name only. The designs were not even similar really and the value of the denomination was entirely different in all cases.

Originally Posted by GDJMSP

Sylvester I'm surprised at you. Henry VI did issue a ryal, as did Mary, Elizabeth I and James I. But they were alike in name only. The designs were not even similar really and the value of the denomination was entirely different in all cases.

......and seeing my chance to butt in to this thread.....

Just to make a point, here's a silver `Ryal' of James VI of Scotland before he also became James I of England (valued at 30 shillings Scots).

Originally Posted by GDJMSP

Sylvester I'm surprised at you. Henry VI did issue a ryal

Not according to my CoinCraft 2000 or my Seaby 1993 he didn't.


The only monarchs listed as having had Ryals are;

Edward IV (as 10/-)
Henry VII (as 10/-)
Mary I (as 15/-)
Elizabeth I (as 15/-)
James I [Rose Ryal] at 30/-


No mention of Henry VI, he just had Nobles and Angels.

And yes they did all look diffeent, but the denomination wasn't always different.

As you can see the Ryals of Elizabeth and Mary were both 15/- pieces and the Rose Ryal of James I was actually in reality a Double Ryal.

Originally Posted by sylvester

The Noble was first struck in Edward III's reign to replace the Florin (Double Leopard or whatever you want to call it).

The Noble was discontinued in the reign of Edward IV, and was replaced by a Ryal (or Rose Noble). If i remember rightly the Ryal was valued at 10/- rather than 6/8d that the noble always had been.

I'm with you on that score Syl. The Noble had a weight of 108 grains. The Ryal (aka `Rose Noble') had a weight of 120 grains.

Originally Posted by sylvester

The angel was introduced shortly afterwards as a new 6/8d coin to help fill the void left by the absence of the Noble.

The Angel had a weight of 80 grains and a value of 6/8d. That's the exact same weight as the Half Ryal (which was worth 5/-). Hence I presume that the Angel was introduced at 6/8d either because the half Ryal's gold value had become worth more than its issue value or there was rampant inflation (effectively both) :-).

Originally Posted by sylvester

The Ryal came and went over the next century or so, Edward VI struck them, Henry VII had then, Queen Mary I and the demomination ceased in James I's reign if i remember rightly. A somewhat patchy, sporadic and totally unsuccessful existance for that 10/- coin.

The Rose Ryal of James I of Britain had an original issue value of 30/-, but by 1612 the value had risen to 33/-. By the third coinage (1619-25) it's weight had been dropped to 196.5 grains and face value returned to 30/-.

Sticking with James 1, the Angel had an issue value of 10/- . That was 11/- by 1612. The third coinage saw a smaller coin (reduced dimension and weight) returning the value back to 10/-.

Originally Posted by sylvester

The Angel was later revalued to 10/- anyhow and circulated alongside the gold half sovereign of the same value.

The Laurel had a value of 20/- and (as a 3rd coinage coin) was minted presumably to replace the earlier `Sovereign' (?) The Half Laurel (10/-) appears to have circulated contemporaneously with the Angel, but no doubt there would also have been Half Sovereigns around at the same time too. Personally I can't fathom why they felt the need for different coinage of the same value on the go at the same time. Must have been a `bad timing' thing (or something).

All very confusing....but to add to that general confusion, James before ascending to the throne of England had issued Nobles and Ryals . Mary Queen of Scots did not issue any coin with the name of `Noble' but there were three separate silver Ryal issues.

1) Gold Lion Noble (78.5 grains) value of 75/- Scots.
2) Gold Thistle Noble (117.75 grains) value 146/8d Scots
3) Silver Ryal with an issue value of 30/- in 1567 (rising to 36/9d in 1578

Just my bodle's worth ;-)

Ian

Going back to your point on the 'angels', 'half unite', 'half laurel', 'half sovereign', 'double crown'... scenario.

They were all 10/- pieces (per say, taking out the complex gold price rises leading to fluctuating values). Sovereigns and half sovereigns were named after the monarch and were 20/- and 10/- coins respectively (yes the value changed sometimes, but generally that was their value), there was a hammered gold pound in Elizabeth's reign, but since the sovereign was worth a pound anyhow it's not too difficult to follow.

When England and Scotland were joined in 1603 with James VI, they changed the name of the sovereign/pound to Unite, to celebrate the uniting of kingdoms. Then when they changed the profile to show the King wearing Laurels instead of a crown they quickly became nicknamed Laurels. So Unites shifted to Laurels, and then with the Charles I issue it was back to the Crown and back to the old name, Unite.

It might seem a bit easier to follow if we think of the denominations as 20/- pieces with different names, so kinda like Liberty, Buffalo, Jefferson. US collectors refer to them by those names and they are generally understood.

Gets more confusing in the 10/- and 5/- departments though.

The 5/- for instance; Crown (gold), Quarter Laurel, Crown (silver), Half Angel...

10/-; Angel, double crown, half sovereign, half unite, half laurel, silver half pounds, gold halfpounds.

Add into this fluctuating gold prices and frequent changes in denominations and i'm surprised your Jacobean merchant knew what to think.

Originally Posted by sylvester

Not according to my CoinCraft 2000 or my Seaby 1993 he didn't.


The only monarchs listed as having had Ryals are;

Edward IV (as 10/-)
Henry VII (as 10/-)
Mary I (as 15/-)
Elizabeth I (as 15/-)
James I [Rose Ryal] at 30/-


No mention of Henry VI, he just had Nobles and Angels.

My only point was that the coins were issued in different denominations and with different designs - therefore not the same, in any way other than name - than the coin I posted about. It seemed in your post you were saying that a ryal is a ryal no matter when issued - they are not.

As for Henry VI - that was a typo - forgot the last I.

No i'm saying they are called Ryals, no matter what the design or the denomination they are (and were called Ryals), Ryal is a fairly loose term, a recycled term you may say.

Just like the term florin was recycled, would you argue that an Edward III florin is not a florin because it had a different value to a Victorian florin?

Edward IV Ryals are just that, ryals. Rose noble is not generally used.

Perhaps not by you my friend, but it is by the rest of the world and every catalog or reference book I've ever seen.